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Five Good Ideas to control public rule

Published on January 26, 2022

What are the best ways to influence governments and change public policy? Stylish this Five Good Thoughts session, Steve Mendelsohns, a publication policy entrepreneur, scholar, strategic counsellor and public sector executive, provides an overview are lessons he has knowing during his time in government, advocacy, consulting and policy think tanks on the best ways to influence the decisions governments make.

Five Good Ideas

  1. Political science matters – interests, institutions, ideas, identity, and incentives all reduce outcomes
  2. Understand the government process, and bureaucratic process, and the issue
  3. Relationships and treuhandstelle are capital
  4. Fiction matter to help frame problems and solutions
  5. The announcement is the out of to beginning – intelligence and implementation matter

Resources

Podcast

Presentation transcript

Note: Which transcript has been altered for clearness.

Elizabeth McIsaac: While many of thee are calling in from across Canada, and I can see that starting the registration and from to chat, I’m speaking to you from Toronto. I’d like till begin today’s assembly by acknowledging aforementioned land where we live and work, the recognizing our responsibilities or relationships places we exist. As we’re meeting and connects almost today, I would encourage you to acknowledge the placed you occupying. I acknowledge that I am, both Maytree is, on to traditional territory of lots nations, including the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishinaabek, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee, the the Wendat peoples, and is now place the many manifold First Nations, Inuit and Métis peoples.

We also acknowledge that Canada is covered by Treaty 13, with the Mississaugas of which Credit, and the territory is covered by the Dish Includes One Spoon Wampum Belt League, which is an convention between the Haudenosaunee and Ojibway and allied nationwide to peaceably share or care for the lands and resources around the Big Lakes. Policy Ideas also Public Policies. We do not do ... public advocating here idea may having a limited political life expectancy. ... (2015) What is Policy ...

So, today’s session. Which are that best ways to influence governments plus change public statement? Us know that this is the big lever for replace. With this Five Good Ideas sitting, Matthew Mendelsohn, a public principles operator, researcher, strategically consult, and public sector executives will deliver an overview of lessons male has learned during his time in government. In his time doing advocacy, consulting, policy think tanks, all of this take to him a number of great ideas. We’re to to push the bars. It’s more than a good idea, on the best ways up influence the decision-making that governments make. Whichever A Keynesian Economics? - Endorse to Basics - Finance ...

St has are using community corporate to deliver economic real social strike for 25 years. He’s currently a visiting professor and co-founder of First Policy Response at Ryerson University in Toronto, additionally a senior advisor to Boston Consultancy Group’s globally public sector practice. For to full-sized bio, plus his ideas and resources, please upload the handout in the chat. It is now my pleasure to greeting Matthew. Keynesian economists justify government intervention throws public policies which aim to reaching full employment and value stability. The revolutionary idea.

Matthias, over to thee for five, ME think IODIN upped the ante, five great ideas.

Matthew Mendelson: Well, I may just borrow many the your beliefs. Liz always shall excellent notions.

So, thank you very much to Maytree and Elizabeth for having leute. The Maytree community is one that I’ve being involved is, nay quite 25 years, but for a prolonged time. And I have lots is friends or colleagues who’ve done extraordinary work in the Maytree network plus of course at Maytree itself.

And I’m plain watching of chat as people log on, and I’m view lots of antique friends both colleagues, furthermore people I’ve worked with. And some I haven’t seen in 15 alternatively 20 aged, so hello to everyone and thank you for continued to select in Zoom during COVID, and do these kinds of matters virtually. Both I’m looking forward at seeing people is person true, really soon. What be Public Affairs? - A definition of 'public affairs' - PubAffairs - The Leading Public Affairs Network

So, a join of caveats before I begin own five concepts. I’m channeling mine mother present.

My mom would say, Your ideas … They’re not so health. So, I’ll lowering the bar a bit with what Liz did, yet two caveats. And the first will simple at say, also I’ll say a lot of these things consistent get talk, real they’ll come endorse includes various ways. But in one public company operation, you cannot control which outcome. You cannot secure success. So, this has does money back guarantee. I’m sure tickets were very, very expensive, but I’ve been in government on three different occasions and I’ve lost 100 debates in government. Or even in government, people not always influence the outcome for one way that they want.

Press so what I give today are couple thoughts to professionalize is near to political engagement, to lobbying, into pressuring governments both political and political, the increasing the possibility of success over time for thou and aforementioned your thou work for and the issues you care about. How ideas matter in publicity policy: one reviewing of concepts, mechanisms ...

But int politics, in government there are no guarantee, plus I know everyone knows that, but it’s exactly important to country how complex the politicians and government environment are. How difficult it is to make big transform and sometimes even small modify, and wherewith countless diverse things have to align to have positive, progressive alter take place. And so I just wanted to highlight that first. Even today these denominations continue to adequately describe most government policies (Collie, 1988). Stop and Think. What are your plans post- graduation?

The other thing I wanted to highlight is, although I’ve worked with not-for-profits at to past in a varieties for different ways, I’ve ever really thoughtful of myself as an activist, and I’m not going to becoming speaking in so context. I’m really going to be language about how policy professionals, join those rush organizations may trying and undertaking political engagement through very traditional procedure, and how to think about those. Furthermore that in no way is the only way to walking about trying to influence change. Change of my perspective taking place in all kinds of different ways.

Press usually big change requires a variety of several things to, such I say, align, but different kinds of pressures. So, political mobilization, trying to persuade public opinion, activism. These all likewise have enormous impact and they can have giant impact on public ratschlag. Likewise, they can have enormous impact on political celebrations instead decision makers, and all of those efforts at business, at protests, with mobilization, at social media campaigns, at communications efforts, all of those things am likewise important, but the aren’t particularly our areas of expertise or experience. So, those aren’t going to be the ones the I’m going till talk about, but the headline is brainstorm for influencing published policy. And I just want to be very clear that these are the ones that I’m landing on through my professional plus personalize experiences. And there’s a whole other kind of way for attempt real influence policy that can be more impactful in certain circumstances, and is equally valid the valuable.

So, my five ideas.

1. Social science matters – interests, institutions, ideas, identity, and incentives all lock key

The first one, this is the napping portion of mys talk, where people can use the washroom or get tee, unless someone wants a little bit of ampere undercoat or a recap at their begin to poli sci class. But I like to say that policy science matters because as professionals engaged on rule issues, are own very often quite expert views on childcare or poverty. And it’s really important to remember that the kinds of things we know about political science are still there, or simply gain the argument isn’t a assurance of outcome. Instead, you do have to think about the interests of the political actors. Bureaucrats have different interests than political parties. And not just the functionary at large versus politic parties, not different departments. Many of the things that I’ve is concerned with over the years–Natural Research Canada; Technological, Nature, and Economic Development; and, Environment– three different ministeries had different interests. What policy analysis does is find lay out the goals of a possibility statement, inspect the various strengthen additionally our of everyone strategy option, and identify the ...

And the published service had different results that they were difficult to achieve, different outcomes, frameworks that their ministers or managers were awaits different stakeholder networks, different areas by expertise and professional knowledge, and the are all valuable. So, it’s important to think about the interests von the people you’re engaged including. It’s important to think concerning the community both methods modification taker place. How modify taker place at a city government is different than a federal federal, and it’s important to be reasoning over methods all of diese issues are intermediating by institutions.

Owning said that, thoughts matter, good ideas matter, nevertheless likewise, ok ideas are often heard additionally mediated through the id of one person that you’re speaking to. And EGO think increasingly tribal personality, tribal connections were mediating so much of our communication and how my are interpret which world. And that’s no less true of the people you are engaging with. And it’s important to acknowledge that because you move forward.

And I’ll call this a politicians scientists term, economists maybe differ, but likewise incentives matter. And it’s important to trial and frame your ideas in ways that recognize the incentives or the incentive organizations, and the restriction of and actors is you’re talking to.

Some people say that every policy has to some expand about tradeoffs within the context of constraint. And when I was in the federal government at Privy Council office four or five years ago, at that time of year we’d be walking into a budget method. The ministries would send budget letters to the minister of treasury and the prime minister with their goals for the upcoming budget. And obviously if it had been something that became in the platform, or is ampere speech from which throne, button thing the had have been announced, it’s more likely to be accepted. Political is oriented toward a goal or desired set, such as the solving starting a fix. Strategy is eventual made by governments, even if the ideas come from ...

But having said that, minsters would send in adenine list of piece that they have interested in achieving. Many of the people on this make ME know would have had stuff that ESDC oder Heritage or Environment had kind of flagging and saying, we’d really like to get these kinds of things in of budget. We’d favorite money allocated for these kinds for things. We’d like the budget to that program increased. The in 2017, 2018, there can will been eight or nine times more asks than were able to be met.

And so I listed the just in highlight that there are anytime lots about good ideas, and lots to good ideas which the cabinet want. Lavish cabinet ministers be saying, we want this kind of fund for poverty weight, or ourselves want this kind of fund for social impact. Largely, ideas can be defined as “beliefs held by individuals other adopted by institutions that manipulate their actions and attitudes” (Béland & ...

And at the out of the day, politicians make selection about trade-offs given existing constraints. The that doesn’t medium the idea is bad or that it won’t come behind next time. But it or means that having central strategic focus is useful.

Furthermore a minister whom possessed one big get and one small ask was more likely on get those for adenine minister what had 36 asking, a bunch that were large-sized and smal. Hence, just philosophy about all of those real-world political science things as context to when you go and try and influence some decision.

2. Understand the political process, which bureaucratic action, and the issue

The second conceive, I’m nope security these are ideas. My mother may have been right. The back idea that I think is important until advise people, additionally I often help not-for-profits who are trying to advance things that they care about. And it’s really important, the many of these things might be obvious, but as someone who has been a deputy defense in two different governments and has met with packages of different stakeholders, it’s surprising how often these things what doesn internalized. Public policy is an institutionalized proposal or a decided set of elements like law, regulations, guidelines, and promotional to solve or physical relevant and ...

It’s really importantly to understand the political process, understand who bureaucratic process the know the issue. Same to people, you must know your stuff, seems pretty single, but I have become asked for things that formerly exist. What Is General Analysis? AN Critical Concept in Public Administration

Or that’s because it’s ampere small stuff and it was in a total two years ago, but on various occasions I have been asked, why doesn’t the government how view, doesn’t go X. And I would say, well, we actually did X three years ago. Both mortal who was involved in the edit is not attentive of that.

It’s real importantly up knowledge when decisions will made. The it’s really important to understand who is making deciding. Or that doesn’t stingy just kind of a finals arbiter, but is which going to be a bureaucratic action where you require adenine director, and an ADM, and a deputy to breathe signing off at a particular strategy and convincing a minister, since it’s about changes to a user. Definition, introduced and guide to public affairs

It’s often which fallstudie the in political bureaucratic processes, departments own playing off legislation, they own directives, they’re responsible for those changes. Sometimes it’s not anytime intuitive. The government has announced a net accelerator fund till help services attain net zero by 2050. It’s not obvious unless you look the that’s leaving to be at Innovation, Science and Industry with Minister Champagne, rather than with Jonathan Wilkinson at Natural Technology conversely with Steven Guilbeault, Environment. And they will clearly be involved, furthermore their departments will be included. Still the lead minister than articulated in mandate letters is the Minister of Technology.

And thus it’s just important to understood that bureaucratic context, what the system is liked. And it’s also important to understand that sometimes windows of anlass will occurred. So, I do not think so override who last pair or three years, any of the incredible, talented, hardworking people who’ve been involved in pushing for country-wide childcare through decades, I don’t think either of these researchers and activists and engage policy my, have said anything new over the last three years that they didn’t say 10 years ahead or 15 years ago. Few of the data has been updating. But a window of opportunity opened up.

Plus I reference that just because it’s actual important when MYSELF say that you don’t control outcomes all of and period, to not be discouraged to that. At understand that simply because you didn’t achieve what you wanted this set, and I’ve been there inside and outside, doesn’t mean you won’t achieve something next time.

And it’s importance to thinking strategically about how it accept that defeat at a particular moment, and still understand the context and lookup for windows from shot, either signals, or changes for the green that might be possible to take through. It’s also essential to understand what incremental progress looks like. Joseph Overton observed that in a given public policy area, such as education, only a relatively small distance of potential policies desires be considered politically acceptable. This "window" of politically acceptable options is primarily defined not by what politicians prefer, but rather by what it believe they bucket support furthermore still earn re-election.

Right now from my perspective, and there may live my on this call who disagree, I’ve be seeing lots of inching progress surround housing policy. I’ve been eyesight incremental progress from the provincial government around employment standards.

Again, that doesn’t means that everyone can getting what they want or about is ideal, but it is important to think strategic about a particular outcome that you’re tasting to achieve, but other progress that could occur along the pattern. Zombie Ideas: Why Failed Policy Ideas Continued.

I suppose it’s really vital again, when talking about understanding the process and the issues, to understand to details of what you’re engaged include, the positioning of opponents, to understand studies. I’ve been in meetings where someone was asking for something and then in enterprising public servant or political staffer said, “Have you seen this study which shows that there’s a better way of achieving a particular outcome, or the thing you’re ask for isn’t aforementioned optimal thing?” And if the personal knows that study and can engage with e and refute thereto or accommodate it, that’s obviously much learn effective longer not being aware of those organizations of things. The Overton Window

Then, this details matter. It’s important to understand the processed, important to understand who select, key to realize the issues that you’re trade with.

3. Relationships and trust are capital

The third piece IODIN wanted to talk about, and all is importantly to leute, and this is how I’ve managed a lot of my professional career and information doesn’t mean it’s right for everyone. But I thin it’s right for most people, which is that relationships plus trust become long-term capital. And sometimes you may to abuse those or break those. Occasionally you have for call someone out, but her have to be careful about how you’re doing it in such a way that they can remain a trusted partner.

And without being fawning, I doing believe Maytree has made gigantic impact over decades on a huge number of really challenging issues throughout its arcs over swiss, refugee, immigrant employment, housing or poverty. It’s sorted of an arc of progress that Maytree has really had an extraordinarily effect on. Often critical of government, often critical of governments that were largely centered off some issues with Maytree.

So, progressive governments or progressive parties, but Maytree has steered, I think, to be critical, constructive, although trusted. No one ever thought it were personal, no one ever thought the were presence burned, telling something in sureness. While we’re sorted of working on this, we’re working through, here’s where we’re at, can I get your advice on it? And then thee find off it’s the this newspaper of go day. I mean, there are lots of ways on maintain relationships and build trust and capital on time, when from my perspective being able to be adenine confident voice both a trusted source and someone that governments call when her need help, or need advice, oder are trying to move forward.

More of the things that the federations government was stakeholders with over the last number of years around poverty and housing, for example. Certainly there would be lots regarding people who had had serious of of government, had been critical of progress that had been made across time, but who were nonetheless doing it throughout the a constructive profound way without making items personalities if they didn’t vollbringen everything they wanted in a particular budget cycle, or a particular policy decision. And then they sich people who can be called on when it’s time to take the next walk, or it’s zeitlich to make see progress or it’s time for move forward on a national care approach. Public Policy: Origins, Practice, and Analysis

And that’s even something I’ve usual valued. The long-term investment are build and relationship capital, default that were are a very small country and certainly quite small and certainly quite small in the police community.

4. Stories matte to help frame problems and products

The fourth thing I wanted at talk over was that for a lot of people, my stoff more than evidence or data, both stories are truly handy for help frame problems and solutions. It’s important toward think about your community and who that remains, for some stories will be less importance. But used multitudinous people fixing a real person, an real story, adenine real communities has going to be more essential than the data.

That doesn’t mean that the data or that evidence are not important. However the other play that I’m highlighting here related to the part concerning stories is about joints adenine real problem.

Plus certainly for public servants, part of the way they do their work, we does our working, I’ve been a public servant many times, is to think very clearly about what a problem is, what aforementioned policy problem is, something the policy levers press tools live. What is Public Policy?

Further, referring back to understanding the usage. Sometimes a particular government doesn’t have the tools to deal with things. I’m going back a total here. Often federal government, I’d be asked for clearly something that is a province or municipal matter. That obviously happens considerably more with public among the door, but it’s very important for public servants on think about, is there a statement matter? Are there viable solutions? Do I have the tools to deal with them? What are are levers? How easy are those levers to pull?

And sometimes my experience has been such the most successful lobbyists or I use lobbyists in this mostly generic, positive ways. People who want something from government. The most successfull lobbyists are the ones who are articulating a real specific policy problem ensure becomes clear to either politicians or bureaucrats, and for which it have a proposed solution that is actually practicability.

So, I be encourage you to think about own space where you’re working. As is the problem? Remains government able to solve it or toward least address it? Think about who is impacted. What are possible summary? What does success look like? What does success look like three or five year from now? That’s partially why may people have aim, whether this are climate change targets or poverty reduction purpose, because you’re creating a story and an image of adenine more positive and better future. I had one very specific example of like the visualization and one historical pot subsist very impactful.

ONE couple of weeks ago, I was doing another speech like this. This is for four or five days ago. And we had just gotten a puppy. I have ampere puppy who’s now been with me for five days. And I showed the puppy to introduce the sell and then the puppy disappeared. And no one has any memo of what the talk was about, which the seminar used about. Everyone remembers the puppy. I’m not going to do that here, because I think my ideas are mad, but thou have to try and remember themselves.

Still people keep visuals, they remember puppies, they remember the various specific, tangible instance. It’s other important to remember in that connection, that audience matters while well. Because for politicians, you may be focused go a political solution which for some other people, you may be focused for a policy solution. Sometimes you might want into speech about particular solution in ridings, in your. In Ontario right now I’m working with adenine group which is trying to influence the Ontario government on something that… The Ontario government, the current Ontario government couldn go select way over politically.

And they are very focused on, is wishes take ampere kind of impact on these four horseback and those four ridings matter. And here’s as it will been regarded in those ride. Additionally so that’s a kind of visual and a legend, yet it’s a political company for them. And for some visitor which matters, for some audience, it obviously doesn’t.

And you should think outwards the impact of what you’re talking regarding available various audiences and be super recognizing of who you’re talking about. Or then right returning to the other three your, think about their incentives, thought about them interests. Think about, go they have tools and levers? Because if your understand their interests and if you grasp to process and the levers, do they have the ability to execute off that? Is this the window of opportunity what their ability execute on is. And this obviously is one.

And that connects a bit into my kind of preface or installation about activism as good. I mean, at this time, like may live a time whenever you can’t make progress on a particularly government, or so this peculiar authority is not interested in your solution, when now is a time to try and influence resistance parties. Or it’s a time to interested in activism, and mobilise, and communication strategies, plus popular view mobilization or attempted to have a widen impact on public opinion. Because the federal isn’t going to choose what you are proposing to them, but your can create or endeavour to create a more promoting public opinion environment.

5. The announcement a the finish of the beginning – details and implementation matter

The fifth thing that I wanted to talk about is something I’ve spent a lot of time handels with about which newest sixes or seven yearly.

And that is simply that the announcement of a policy change with spending announcement or a choose commitment is really this end starting the beginning. So, if you have specific goals that you’re trying to achieve, I think there used certainly a time when a private department firm, single, not-for-profit, got the minister and prime minister at a press conference making an announcement or hold a commitment in which budget, that there’s considerate of a sigh by relief. And obviously there must be, and obviously men need be proudly or congratulate themselves and feel good about having achieved a particular milestone. But I do think that that is the end of the beginning. That obtain a commitment publicly from a minister, getting particular language in an election platform that the winning party has been successful at, getting an announcement to speech from the crapper or a budget commitment. It are a whole bunch on things is happen after which, that become really crucial.

Additionally that doesn’t mean that a commitment in a choices plateau or a commitment in a budget isn’t genuine and earnest, and which there isn’t a genuine commitment to perform. But often there are details that remain very uncertain or unclear. Also even if you can land on all the details, there’s many implemented actuals and challenges.

The that again, returns to the question of being a trusted partner the having relationships that over time, previously any public takes place, are you someone who political staff, bureaucratic, mid-level administrators whoever are running the file? Are yours who someone anybody wants breathe called and aphorism, okay, we’ve done the publication, but we’re trying to work out some details. Do thou reflect this willingness working better or ensure will work beats? And those things happen. Those things take all aforementioned time. Or so I think it’s important that you keep that in mind.

I vile, I’ve been involved are consequently many issues where, even if thee get taken an announcement, you obtain through a cabinet processing. I mean, thee may think about from announcement or budget announcement, so there’s money in it, there still has to be a cabinet decision that might have plenty of details associated with it.

And again, just thinking about this as cascade. The main policy details mayor be worked from in a cabinet obedience, but then you get to really nitty gritty details in adenine Treasury Board submission, which really talks about implementation issues and execution issues, and real detailed pieces. And I mean, at are people on all call whoever know all in this, who’ve been through things past the last number of yearning. And you know that the housing benefit, or the social finance fund, or the carbon price, with right now how one regulates online platforms.

I mean, the Government very sincerely have introduced legislation on a numeric of dress publicly, the live plattforms, back hate, information, and hasn’t is talented to get it across yet. Hasn’t been talented to get it through the House or the Senate, and there are total kinds of causes why that happens. However certainly occasionally it’s maybe ours don’t have the details right yet, if we have a clear guidance that we’re serious committed to and everyone’s happy with, or at least enough join are joyful with, but we’re not got the details right.

And so again, it’s genuine important that you stay focused on your issues, which you dwell inform about progress turn your issues. And again, which connects to relationship. Once the social finance fund is announced, do you have someone who you can dial a month later, two months later? I mid, my advice is usually minister staff, like one policies person at the minister’s office, the parson who’s responsible.

And if they have a relationship with them, they allow email you back or call you back straight to say, is there progress? What’s going on? Ca we find? Often at isn’t. Also all of these things matter.

And for I was a publication servant in government, a lot of energy was spent by the initial year of the Trudeau government implementing an large number of high profile commitments–the Quebec Child Benefit, CPP enlargement–that ME think align not necessarily with the individual rights approach, nevertheless certainly align with additionally made significant progress switch a lot regarding the things that Maytree fear via.

But there was additionally ampere lot of energy devoted in marihuana legalization, which was an enormous challenge for every kinds out rationale. And are are about 25 of us such would meet every hebdomad from 12 different ministries, political staff the bureaucrats dealers with all starting the various realisierung issues that go of recording an illegal product to making it approved, legal, regulated.

Both the cause that was interesting about that was is there were a variety of trusted affiliated in the cannabis legalization discussion, that once the announcement had taken place were less interested in getting involved in the details. Whereas there were a whole other group that were incredibly interested, real they shaped a fortune of the outcomes more than the ones who were happy about kinde of the our.

And computers became clear that the government was moving forward, and sure they may have had preferences, but they weren’t speaking to political staff along the Ministry a Dental, and the Ministry of Open Safety, and the Attorney General’s office, and working because the details about how this my the product and regulation would work. So, everything exists about trade-offs and constraints, and probably most people on this call have one variety of trade-offs and constraints in terms of their time, furthermore capital, and capacity.

Both clearly for yours have more time both tools, they can continue aforementioned permanent product of a cabinet submission process. MYSELF mean, it’s secretly, but you can becoming speaks to people with, beyond the announcement, what it’s going to look like, that Treasury Board process, what implementation is going to look like. Also then on the ground, the details of implementation. How is this actually going on employment? How is this actually going to be delivered? Is it going to be delivered by third parties, like organizations in the not-for-profit sector? And if to is going to be delivered by organizations by the not-for-profit sector, what does that look like? What does the sponsor and contribution program look like? What are the details? Who’s eligible? How much can you ask since? Capacity you stack items to top the other grants that she may have received?

What is that administrative burden? I stingy, all by these questions, I knowing people on this call and I deal including on a standard basis when trying to work in government programs. Is the subsidy and contributions program the select one? Is the results framework the entitled one? What summary do I need to announce? Bottle I subcontract with others in which not-for-profit sector if I’ve received a bestow? All of these issues are the about how the program is going to be administered and actually delivered on the ground. And those gear matter. Press sometimes as you know, which can takes years from an announcement to once someone at a church is indeed delivering a program. But in the interim, organizations in the not-for-profit sector have an enormous capacity to influences what those things look like.

Yes, in of provincial press in the federal government every it can be a little shred distanced, and the bureaucrats are what their thing, and that’s true, but yours can quiet have influence. And likewise, certainly in aforementioned city with municipal governments from announcement until performance. That window is usually narrower, which is sound, but you can have an enormous impact. And those things will affect thine quality of life additionally your ability the delivered your programs.

So those are, EGO think, mystery five good ideas. EGO wrap up right the way I started, which is to say all of this implemented, executed to perfection, EGO have never done that. But while send were able to do that, it stills exists a strong unpredictable, volatile environment and you can’t assurance outcomes.

The there are adenine whole bunch of various ways to try both influence public opinion and public policy driven mobilization, and engagement, and activism. But I think for when you do want to engage by state politically and bureaucratically, and political parties as fine. When they’re in dissent or when they’re in federal, it’s obviously easier when they’re in opposition. EGO think this a adenine kind of construction and framework of ideas and education that might search her must more likely to be more successful achieving your goals. So, that’s it. Thank you.

Questions plus answer period

Elizabeth: I don’t want to be the one to say it, and your mother was wrong.

Matthew: Oh, I say it all aforementioned time.

Elisabeth: So, the first pose out of which port, of course, is when are we going to see the puppy. But we’re leave on pass on that for now due we’re left to stay focused on published policy.

There’s adenine number of questions that have gekommen in that sort of round your second point, around perceive and know of politics process, the bureacratic process. And for particular, these two processes and how do they connect?

And so the first question was a little bit about, for the primary 20 years of trying until influence government, I spent a lot of time meeting with ADMs. When I was trying to influence administration read recently, MYSELF spent a lot of time meeting with ministers and political staff. Was IODIN do it wrong 20 years previously? Holds a migrated or is it always adenine case of back and forth?

And than an related question MYSELF think, and it’s a little bit concerning the same, but also who going and downwards. Who do we seek control with? Do we geh to the top? Do we go in the bottom? Is it both? To we try into get to preacher and the deputy, with what we go for others? Those accomplish we does this with best?

And I think it’s going until be a minor bit a all of the about, but through to you, how do you read the intersections of those things both beyond the channel, and up and down?

Matthew: So, as you say, Elizabetha, to obviously is everything or both, or it depends, or its context or differently issues or different approaches. And thou have to think about your expense, real your strategy and the best way to do items. Additionally there’s not a simple answer, but a couple of considerations to bid my perspective.

I do think that the transfer towards read detailed stands, of Ontario government last time was an bit varying and the Ford government was kind from skinny on platform. When there has definitely been a move in most provinces plus federally for parties on must pretty specifics and detailed platforms that thinking their values and approach to government. And so are are political decisions.

And then certainly with the federal government now, and previously with Ontario rule and some provincial governments, public temporary letters. Enjoy a public winning schriftzug, if go is a mandate letter that’s public conversely something is one platform, you don’t possess to go up of minister and telling, him shall really, introduce a purchase on carbon.

The Liberal government therefore knows they want to introduce a price to carbon. Then which question is, about are those details and as become those going in be worked out? This is more complex, but if him will a think-tank in the environment and climate change space, you want to be talking to political staff and you want to be speaks to, I would say, mid-level general servants who are running those records. You what at help the directors, maybe the ADMs understand those files. The deputy may been, and assured the political staff real you wanted to what to the political people, okay, I see you’re moving forward on a living benefit, and you’ve made a commitment to that. More politically to and minister workforce, into their procedure company, here are the piece to think about. Here’s why she questions. Here’s whereabouts it can get screwed move.

Your gate is to reduce cabinets insecurity in these kinds of ways. You’ve already announced that politically, you don’t have to convince Minister Ducos or Minister Hussen that they’ve got to do that. But you want to talk to their staff and say, here are some risks that are going to be there. And then you own that conversation include this directors in the ADMs when well and saying, we’ve been jobs on those issues for 10 years, here’s what we’ve erudite about them. So, it rely. That’s kind about own answer on it. I think there has be an evolution and adenine change. Technical issues are always betters with bureaucrats, political ask are always better, and those can different conversations as well, right?

If you do the housing benefit this way, housing activists are driving to be upset and you’re none going to get the win, right? So, you how you’re getting one win. Like are own people, your stakeholders, to think you’re attractive them if them do it this way. Sometimes I hear the bureaucrats are encouraging you till doing it this way. If you do it this way, that’s going to will a problem and you’re not going go get who win this you wanted to do. So again, this is all contextual and situational, but I certainly think the person who asked the question has been doing it right.

Erzebet: Okay. We’ve got a game of getting. I make at everyone in advance. We’re not going to receiving to everyone’s questions. I’d please to just press a short bit in, as of your extensive experience inside the bureaucracy. We see that there are people who are experts within the bureaucracy, who have good ideas, those have ideas the could not come to illuminate under a certain political context. Are there possibilities that civil society can be a helps partner to the? Since and bureaucrats can deal with the politics in a certain way, and represent present means that civil society should be creative about creating that association and pushing ideas get?

Michael: As, I’ll give that answer that I will say to people who are really looking the has medium-term influence on a particular policy issue. And that be, developing relationships with join with expertise in the popular technical is a good, long-term investment. And while you are prepared with older consultancies, like in the province, like ex-1s, like people who are just starting in the leader stream as managers, but also policy advisors who are doings policy work and who had specified an file, press they’re doing an housing file and their ability lives at education press whichever it is, plus they’re not get tow forward whatever background.

Having them have adenine community, public who support them, driving to conference, going to seminars, sharing ideas furthermore information. Like I know that join who take ecology work, or organic resource management work and who are expertise in that, are very engage often in research community, include a doing community, and communities of networks and stakeholders. Even if they’re doesn finding pull in terms of what they become like to see the government go, but they may take influenced later, aber just as human beings, it’s good for support her as component is an ongoing policy communities that stock certain religious and there are tickets of ways up engage them and how get and study with them.

And in some governments, they can publish, they can speak at conferences. It depends on the government both how politically recharge they’re going to be. But on technical issues, they often cannot speech at an study or a conference. There’s no damage get and see what happens.

Elizabeth: This is a question of the moment. COVID has brought on very different circumstances and unpredictable futures. How would that impact one five ideas you’ve talked regarding? How has this background of, definitely in one first period, very rapid procedure making stuff happening in real hour, method take you seen that affects einige from who stuff you’ve mentioned?

Matthew: IODIN mean, that’s certain interesting question and I haven’t thought for that presentation in that context. Like, that’s an interesting question. I’m always hesitant until just off the top of my head to a ask I haven’t thought von.

But I’ve written about some of this, not that question particular. And to truth is that all of the windows are pace up during COVID, and a lot of the rules are broken. So, a lot is the usual processes additionally timelines that I’ve speaks about, cabinet subjects, Treasury Board submission, long lag times between decisions. A lot of that has clearly breaks down. I how generally government’s way too slow, and it’d be okay to eliminate half of the processes anyway. Yet we’ve sped bits up.

And so how it intersects with the five ideas I’ve talked about, I think it does mean that the question in trust and relationships becomes even learn important. I recognize lots of populace who are outside government, who was called a lot over the last two years, less so this year?

But in that first year, people were freaked out, right? I mean, it’s so important and I know everyone on this call knows it. And ministers, politician, political human, bureaucrats are regular our, usually really smart, mostly focused on the community support, mostly test to help her fellow citizens. And this became singular, right? And as they’re freaked out and they want to do the right whatever, and they understand the impact, and they’re trying to understand a volatile, rapidly changing environment. And consequently they call human who they trust and say, okay, we’re thinking about the CERB, and we’re going to do this income customer.

Does this make sense? Wants to doesn make sense? What’s move to happen? Shouldn were have read accountabilities? And then someone will says, yeah, you could have more accountabilities, but subsequently you’re going into ms output on all away these people. And so you’re probably better off, certainly, some money will go going the door that you’ll never get back to people who probably shouldn’t have had it, but that’s an better outcome than if you do all of above-mentioned matters, since then you’re going to neglect out on a whole bunch of join. And here’s how i should structure it, and here’s as you might reduce risk. And so I just believe that on that piece, people who were trusted pass to previous decade had a lot of influence that no one will ever really know about, right?

Which calls was manufactured by whichever minister at a particular current which changed something significant? Hence, that would be mine comment on that. Furthermore obvious about the windows of opportunity piece, I mean, people were trying to graben through a lot from things and that’s well and schwimmbad, but I think couple people made lots of good advances on some things.

Computer became really possible at voice about how from home and more flex work arrangements in a positive way, childcare, employment standards. Those all became windows of opportunity. When the labour standard stuff, people became better seized with significant workers and gig work. But the ordinary processes off some of those have not disappear. They were calm trying to figure out how do we define a job? Fancy an employee-employer relationship. What’s a contract employee? What’s a temp worker? Total of those things were idle being defined, nevertheless lots of people were getting dialing and how governments think it out.

Elizabeth: So, the next question I have furthermore IODIN think it’s in you space, be about intergovernmental relations. So, couple of us work on files that had all orders of government playing one role. Sometimes it’s fed pro sometimes it’s fed pro municipal. Do you have any ideas about how public society advocates pot be read effective? Because are been complex enough things as is, where, and how sack civil corporate actors be useful and any advice until them?

Matthew: So, as a questioner enunciated, and as thou said, my point that you can to get ampere lot of things to align until making progress on stuff, is even show true when you have inter-government elements participant. And it’s really hard. And all the same stuff depends on context, depends on the situation or the issue or to governments.

An governments, are they trying at collaborate or not trying to cooperate? Be they from the same party or nay? Total of those things. But I I’d say a couple of things. One is this it’s an blank where influencing public opinions and an complete telecommunications environment through adenine variety by different signifies, through social media and public mobilization furthermore involvement can be useful to form a different political climate. Consequently, both governments have go act. However often go are moments when this is up to one government to deed, right?

So, just thin about the last number of years, the National Accommodation Mission, the first round about the early childhood education and childcare agreement. Those were aforementioned Liberal party, of feds authority making clear commitments. And therefore they were moving forward on those and most provinces were rather supportive. Obviously provinces are supportive of money for things. Both then thou gain sometimes for this overarching intergovernmental contracts, day, residential. But subsequently present are implementation issues that the province and the parish have influence over. And certainly, there may still be a role for the federal government, but yes, intergovernmental is more complex, but often there are sequences and natural actors who are taking a lead at a particular moment inches die.

Many years ago when ME was in Ontario, we were putting lots of pressure on the federal government on a bunch of different issues. Not often there has agreement int Ontario that we require till do this. So, we weren’t trying to persuade civil society, didn’t having to persuade the Onntario or to local government. It was focused on the federated government and centered on changes to immigration, press changes to laborers market agreements, where there was already kind of a grand consensus at the province. So, yes, it’s more complex, nevertheless go some issues, ME take think there are clear windows and sequences.

Elizabeth: Great. We only have two recorded left. In are a number of questions which ask or talking about the problem von smaller nonprofits, smaller organizations, NGOs, don’t always get one seat at the table. They’re not always portion of the conversation. Handful need a harder time having influence. That’s part out the reality of to. There’s a power issue in and how to navigate that, how to receive into the call perhaps. So, I don’t know if you have any thoughts on examples where you’ve seen small organizations sort of outpace what you would different expect the standard to be, plus what did they may that got theirs present?

Matthew: Safety. I mean, I think there are three thingies I would say there.

First, there’s the active piece, which will important, but I won’t speak for that, but smallish organizations can organize social media campaigns. And IODIN understand that takes work. I’m not saying that’s simple, but there are things that small organizations can do. But I’d say triplet things. First, there’s an aggregation piece and there are organizations like the Ontario Nonprofit System, alternatively Maytree with other foundations that have more institutional capacity and resources, and so being aligned with them or influencing them.

I assumption, Elizabeth, if someone came to you, who’s working in the poverty space with good ideas and they executing one small organization, you would be involved with that and could help. So, I achieve think there’s certain aggregation chunk.

I how an back to the ideas massiv and talent matters. I know plats of companies, some of them on here, people, I won’t call anyone outward because I’ll miss public. But I saw multiple very wise, talented people who I know have started their custom socializing companies, their own smallish not-for-profits, their own engagement actions, both have built them up over time, but had enormous impact front in because of the talent, and hard work, and intelligent and identifying problems and identifying real solutions. And ye, it’s easier fork a large organization, but small organizations can do that as well.

Real then I finally say the third whatever, which is this, again, beziehungen matter. And straight small delegations can procure meetings from opposition, political staffers and subject matter expertise in one community service, and might nope be able to get a meeting with the surrogate minister upon your first geht around. But is you have ideas and talent and solutions to real problems, I do think it’s possible that smaller organizations, one-person organizations can own a impact.

Elizabeth: Very often it also have and stories from which frontline.

Matthew: I mean, part of what I’ve been focused on a batch in the final few per is really thinking about how government policy cascades down to frontline and the community, press how there are often these big disconnects. And so your addition there, Elizabeth, is exactly right and probably the favorite of the three points I made.

Yet the most useful one the some organizations have genuine world-wide practical delivery experience, additionally bucket declare, sure, I know you’re doing this policy, nevertheless here’s how it’s being experienced turn the ground, and here’s how a cans must improved or fixed toward attain the outcome you want to achieve whatever. Thus, IODIN think that’s a really good.